joshwriting | My religious beliefs

Current Mood: contemplative
Current Music: Losing my religion

My religious beliefs

A question on Sheroes asked "How did you come to your beliefs?"

After many years of studying and reading about different religions, including the one I was ostensibly raised in, and after prayer seeking guidance (and a clue), and after conversations with priests, reverends, rabbis and shamans...

I concluded that I have nary a clue, nor any chance (in hell) of finding one.

I am a devout agnostic, dedicated to the principle that I do not and cannot know what is going on with deities.

I do pray, though...

p.s. If I listed my mood as contemplative every time I LJed, I suspect it would not be inaccurate.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I might wish for a new computer. That would be wishful thinking.

I could also pray for a new computer. That would be asking for it (even if the thing I am petitioning has no power or does not even exist).

One could also compare the definitions. According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, it is quite clear that praying involves "God, a god, or another object of worship." Wishing is considered to be a synonym for want or desire.

100% agreed that the words have different definitions... as do many other similar words in English. To the extent that we're having a merely semantic discussion here, no more need be said.

But it seemed to me that whoever raised the praying/wishing distinction in the first place was trying to say something more interesting than that... specifically, was identifying real-world constraints on what an agnostic can do.

So, for example: suppose I, as an agnostic, direct my will purposefully on my desire for a new computer, expecting based on experience (deluded or otherwise) that this will increase my odds of getting one even though I'm not sure what mechanism mediates that relationship.
I'll agree for the sake of discussion that I am not "praying" for a new computer, because prayer by definition presupposes the kind of faith that an agnostic by definition does not have.
So what would you call what I'm doing instead, and in what way is it importantly different from praying?
In other words -- are you asserting that the logical inability to pray constitutes a real constraint on what an agnostic can do? Or is it just a different word we use to describe an analogous act performed in a different context? Or something else...?

Some of this starts to get into quantum mechanics and whether mind-over-matter works. If it turns out that mind can influence matter (or other minds), than is the mechanism behind the transfer a type of deity? I do not have any specific answer. Perhaps English needs an another word?

I'm sorry. I'm apparently failing to make my question clear.

I'm not making any kind of assertion about whether the state of my mind affects the world. That's why I added the "deluded or otherwise" clause. And I'm certainly not positing any particular mechanism whereby that might occur, supposing that it does, be it quantum-mechanical or otherwise.

You started out by asserting that a particular activity (prayer) was unavailable to a particular class of people (agnostics).

What I have been trying to establish was whether you meant that in a relatively trivial semantic way (along the lines of "agnostics can do the same kind of thing but one cannot properly call it 'prayer', we must use some other word") or in a meaningful real-world way (along the lines of "agnostics cannot do the same kind of thing").

I see it as a real-world issue. You cannot pray to something if you do not believe in that thing. This is a very pronounced problem if you believe in nothing.

So, the first part of your answer answered my question -- it's a real-world issue. Cool.
The second part makes it sound again like you're just defining your terms... and the third part really puzzles me (are you seriously asserting that anyone in the real world believes in nothing?)... but I think I'll stick with the first part.
Thanks for clarifying.

For my part, I think it's entirely possible for someone to withhold belief in deity but still direct their will with results equivalent to what a theist obtains by prayer. Consequently I don't think there's any real-world distinction in this space between what is available to a theist and what is available to an agnostic.

But it's always nice to know we actually disagree about something in the world, and aren't just diddling around with the definitions of words.

But arguing over definitions is fun.

No problem with that, though I don't disagree with your definitions per se (merely with the implication that the distinction between them is particularly important) which makes argument difficult. It just helps to know which game is being played.

But I don't believe in nothing.

I am unconvinced of nothing, either!

For purposes of this argument, I was not considering anyone who does believe in something; just those who believe in nothing.

You are unconvinced of nothing...
So you are convinced of everything? (or at least something?)

Isaac, I am very confused by your confusion.

I do not believe in something. I do not believe in everything. I do not believe in nothing.

I have one belief - that I do not know what is the truth.

This means prayer might have value and might not.

I suppose I am fairly convinced that it is unlikely to do harm.

But if it does no harm and might do good, then why not?

Think of it a something akin to having a coupon for a free lottery ticket.

There is no expectation of winning, and you might not go out of your way to get the ticket - but if you are in the store with the lottery tickets, anyway, then what is the cost of getting a free ticket?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

My religious beliefs

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other

Re: Other