Josh&#39;s Crosstime Salute

If you don't believe, what is the difference between praying and wishing?

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Just some thoughts; others should feel free to debate me on this:

I would think that the main difference involves whether you are asking some power (person, deity, nature, The Force, ...) to help you, or simply hoping that something will. Most prayer involves wishing, but wishing is not necessarily equal to praying.

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OK, so praying is "dear whomever" and wishing is "to whom it may concern, if any".... how can a devout agnostic pray?

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I am not sure if they can.

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baronet.livejournal.com

Be wary of deciding that some category of people is Other and incapable of doing something, particularly something that you consider important but which defies measurement. Such distinctions are usually wrong, and can often lead to needless fights.

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I was trying not to make any specific conclusion, just that someone who really does not believe in anything would logically not be likely to pray to something that they do not believe in.

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dpolicar

(shrug) So, I'll accept for the sake of discussion that a true agnostic will not pray. I guess my question is, is the difference between "praying" and other applications of directed will all that important? Or is it just another word?

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I might wish for a new computer. That would be wishful thinking.

I could also pray for a new computer. That would be asking for it (even if the thing I am petitioning has no power or does not even exist).

One could also compare the definitions. According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, it is quite clear that praying involves "God, a god, or another object of worship." Wishing is considered to be a synonym for want or desire.

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dpolicar

100% agreed that the words have different definitions... as do many other similar words in English. To the extent that we're having a merely semantic discussion here, no more need be said.

But it seemed to me that whoever raised the praying/wishing distinction in the first place was trying to say something more interesting than that... specifically, was identifying real-world constraints on what an agnostic can do.

So, for example: suppose I, as an agnostic, direct my will purposefully on my desire for a new computer, expecting based on experience (deluded or otherwise) that this will increase my odds of getting one even though I'm not sure what mechanism mediates that relationship.
I'll agree for the sake of discussion that I am not "praying" for a new computer, because prayer by definition presupposes the kind of faith that an agnostic by definition does not have.
So what would you call what I'm doing instead, and in what way is it importantly different from praying?
In other words -- are you asserting that the logical inability to pray constitutes a real constraint on what an agnostic can do? Or is it just a different word we use to describe an analogous act performed in a different context? Or something else...?

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Some of this starts to get into quantum mechanics and whether mind-over-matter works. If it turns out that mind can influence matter (or other minds), than is the mechanism behind the transfer a type of deity? I do not have any specific answer. Perhaps English needs an another word?

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dpolicar

I'm sorry. I'm apparently failing to make my question clear.

I'm not making any kind of assertion about whether the state of my mind affects the world. That's why I added the "deluded or otherwise" clause. And I'm certainly not positing any particular mechanism whereby that might occur, supposing that it does, be it quantum-mechanical or otherwise.

You started out by asserting that a particular activity (prayer) was unavailable to a particular class of people (agnostics).

What I have been trying to establish was whether you meant that in a relatively trivial semantic way (along the lines of "agnostics can do the same kind of thing but one cannot properly call it 'prayer', we must use some other word") or in a meaningful real-world way (along the lines of "agnostics cannot do the same kind of thing").

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I see it as a real-world issue. You cannot pray to something if you do not believe in that thing. This is a very pronounced problem if you believe in nothing.

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dpolicar

So, the first part of your answer answered my question -- it's a real-world issue. Cool.
The second part makes it sound again like you're just defining your terms... and the third part really puzzles me (are you seriously asserting that anyone in the real world believes in nothing?)... but I think I'll stick with the first part.
Thanks for clarifying.

For my part, I think it's entirely possible for someone to withhold belief in deity but still direct their will with results equivalent to what a theist obtains by prayer. Consequently I don't think there's any real-world distinction in this space between what is available to a theist and what is available to an agnostic.

But it's always nice to know we actually disagree about something in the world, and aren't just diddling around with the definitions of words.

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But arguing over definitions is fun.

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dpolicar

No problem with that, though I don't disagree with your definitions per se (merely with the implication that the distinction between them is particularly important) which makes argument difficult. It just helps to know which game is being played.

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But I don't believe in nothing.

I am unconvinced of nothing, either!

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For purposes of this argument, I was not considering anyone who does believe in something; just those who believe in nothing.

You are unconvinced of nothing...
So you are convinced of everything? (or at least something?)

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Isaac, I am very confused by your confusion.

I do not believe in something. I do not believe in everything. I do not believe in nothing.

I have one belief - that I do not know what is the truth.

This means prayer might have value and might not.

I suppose I am fairly convinced that it is unlikely to do harm.

But if it does no harm and might do good, then why not?

Think of it a something akin to having a coupon for a free lottery ticket.

There is no expectation of winning, and you might not go out of your way to get the ticket - but if you are in the store with the lottery tickets, anyway, then what is the cost of getting a free ticket?

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baronet.livejournal.com

For me, Praying is when I feel like you are talking to someone, even if I don't have any idea whether I'm talking to someone, someones, something(s), or a convenient mental construct.

So in your analogy, praying is "to whom it may concern, if any" and wishing is a yellow sticky, unaddressed and not sent *to* anyone or anything.
But this is a subtle shade of meaning between the two words, or a semantic argument.

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Praying is with intention. Wishing is with desire, but no intention.

Praying can be "if there IS a power out there, then..."

Wishing, unless directed (to the star, the well, whatever), is far more aimless than that. And... with less expection that there might be a return on investment.

Wishing is one class down from lottery tickets. Praying is one up.

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Not meaning to be rude to you, or anyone - but I'm finding most of these theories to not resonate in the slightest with me.

Prayer is, by any reasonable definition I can see, is an attempt to speak to some deity or combination thereof. To praise, or thank, or intercede. It is, at base, a conversation with some power or powers greater than oneself. Sometimes unidirectional, sometimes asking for bidrectionality, sometimes asking for action.

What else could it really be?

As an agnostic (and a devout one) it seems to me that prayer is at most a forlorn hope. But, more generally, self contradictory. I'm tempted by the word hypocritical, but that's more negative than I am feeling.

This is just me. I consider myself an agnostic - I would never pray.

Wishing is different, it is a hope for another outcome. But not with an expectation that anyone or anything could bring it.

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Well, mine is not a theory.

Mine is practice.

If I believed that there was NOT one out there, then I might feel otherwise.

It is to the POSSIBLE deity, not to the definite. Your approach smacks to me of atheism, of conviction that there IS nothing to which (to whom) to pray.

I agree with your wishing description.

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dpolicar

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the difference between "wishing" and "praying" (and for that matter "hoping" and "desiring" and "wanting" and various other English words). To be honest, it sounds an awful lot like a roundabout attempt to say what could be said more simply as either "faith is good!" or "faith is bad!" depending on one's predilections.

The semantics aside, I do think there's an enormous difference between purposeful/focused desire and amorphous/undirected desire. The former can often get something done, regardless of whether one attributes the mechanism to well-disposed gods or psychic abilities or attentiveness to mundane opportunities or whatever. The latter, not so much.

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It may be to the possible deity, and perhaps but I am being too anthropomorphic.....

But I have to figure that any real deity would be like, "Hey, check this out. Stupid non-believer wants me to do him a favor. Asshole." :-)

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There are three basic models of deities that I can imagine, though, to me, they really amount to two.

1) the omnipotent, benevolent ones
2) the anthropomorphic ones
3) the totally alien ones

(I see #1 and #3 as the same) If we have the second ones, then there is a chance that you would be right, though even some of them are supposedly a little less capricious.

If we have the first, "HE" would be compassionate - it is in the design specs.

If we have the third one, we are in so much deep doo doo anyway, that my little prayer thing is not going to have any particular impact at all!

I think you are, in fact, being to anthropomorphic. G-d (or gods, or whatever) was not designed in your image, necessarily!

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oasis-in-chaos.livejournal.com

Of course, it isn't my place to tell Josh what his beliefs are. But maybe it would help if we classified him differently. Maybe he is not so much an agnostic, which seems to be a large and very ambiguous belief, but a deist, who is someone that has a belief in some form of a higher power, but is not necessarily the Christian God.

Josh, do correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, what right do I have to define your beliefs for you?

Last I checked, beliefs were open to the interpretation of the beholder, not to be criticized/categorized by others. :}

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baronet.livejournal.com

I am an agnostic. I sometimes pray. I offer myself as a counterexample to the thesis that agnostics don't pray and to the thesis that everyone who prays is a deist. Josh may be another counterexample, or he may not be.

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